Hello. I'm Dr Travis Parry, and this is the balanced growth Show. Welcome. I'm your host as always, and with me today, returning guests, Mr. Ken Pitts, how you doing? Ken?

How are you? Travis, glad to be here.

I'm so glad to have you back. Since last time Ken has actually authored a new book called kinetic wealth, how to use home equity to cross the retirement goal line. Ken's foray into the reverse mortgage world is a direct result of his commitment to his client's financial well being. As his client base began reaching retirement age, he found himself fielding more and more questions about reverse mortgages, baffled by the negative reputation of the of the loan, Ken set about learning the product and researching its potential impact on retirement planning. What emerged was the layman's guide to understanding the reverse mortgage and how to evaluate it as a potential retirement tool. Ken again, welcome to the show, but tell us, how did you get here? Like, I get a glimpse into like, oh, there was some frustration here. There was some misunderstanding. And I get it. There's a lot of myths out there, right in anywhere we talk about in the financial world, but specifically in the loan world, and how this is so quick to change all the time and laws, etc, and state to state variations anyway. Tell us, like, how did you get to this spot? How did, how did you get to this point where you decided I'm going to be, you know, focused in on reverse mortgages.
So I've been lending for over 35 years now, and as most anybody in the financial services industry knows you, if you're good at what you do, you carry your clients with you. And so the majority of my clients are 15 years younger than me to 15 years older. They're kind of sitting right in my age group. I'm 62 so you're talking about my my higher end age groups in their 70s, and in my lower age group is in their late 40s, early 50s. So as I've been moving along in my career, you know, as I hit age 5960 I started getting questions from clients my age, whose parents had taken out reverse mortgages, and most of the time, and I do not recommend this, most of the time, the parents never told the kids that they had these reverse mortgages, so they were taken by surprise. They thought their parents home was owned outright. And they were like, What is this product? How does it work? What do I need to do with it? And so I was counseling folks on what the reverse mortgage was, why their parents took them out and and how did they now have to deal with it as heirs to the estate. And so as I was going through this process, I was obviously, I was getting a lot of questions. I was getting a lot of apprehension, misunderstanding. And I think that's what kind of cued it up in my head, that a one I needed to learn this product inside out, because I needed to understand why people were taking the product out and and how, how you exit this at the at the end. And I think that's what, as I was going through that process, I just realized there's so much misunderstanding in this product and misapplication of it in some cases, that I just felt that need to really get into it elbow deep. And then, you know, you would encourage me to go ahead and write a book about it, as I had learned all this information, and that's how the book came about. And I, for my part, I'm trying to educate two audiences. I'm trying to educate folks my age and older and how this could be a really useful financial tool, and I'm trying to educate financial planners to open up their vision to this product and see how it fits into someone's overall financial plan, because I think it can be a really effective tool if it's applied properly.

Yeah, you know, just seems like out of necessity, this has kind of made you the specialist. You've really dug into it, which I find that fascinating, because you really care about your clients. You want them to be taken care of, and you see this as a long term relationship, which I applaud. And yeah, watching you write this book and going through this process has been a treat to see how much research and and real intellectual prowess has gone into this project. So good for you. And congratulations on that. And by the way, where can people get your book? How do they find kinetic wealth
they can go, I have a landing page for it. It's kinetic wealth book.com kineticwealthbook.com you can also search. Uh, kinetic wealth on Amazon, you'll find it there too. And you know, the nice thing about if you get to the landing page, you can actually download a chapter and read it and see if it's something that you're interested in reading. So gives you that opportunity to test drive it before you bought it.
I love it all right. So let's dig into some of these issues, something I didn't pick up on before, and that was this issue that he just talked about, this family issue of, well, oftentimes they don't even tell their own kids they have this mortgage out. Man, that really can be a buzzkill when we're talking about inheritance planning and estate planning and all the things that go with the retirement aspect of things. But more importantly than that, like kind of paint us a picture of why, what's, what's the problem that reverse mortgages solve for your clients?
So if one of the sources of information that that I really reaped a lot of benefit out of was the Vanguard retirement readiness study. They do that report every year, and I had a buddy of mine who's in retirement studies for the Pew Institute, shared this report with me, and it really opened my eyes to to several things folks who have saved between 200 and a million dollars for their retirement tend to end up about $700 short per month. And where is that money going to come from? Well, what we know, just in our own industry statistics, is the majority of primary residence homes are owned by folks 65 and older, and we also know that we are at the highest equity point that this country has ever seen. So a lot of these folks who are 65 and older are not highly leveraged in their homes, and they actually have an opportunity to use that home equity to help plug that $700 a month gap. And I think that's what's most exciting, in terms of the numbers, the way they're working in a financial plan, because financial planners are trying to figure out, how do I how are we going to plug this gap? What are we going to cut back on? You know, how are we going to place your investments so that we can, you know, we can narrow that gap as much as possible. And here's this big, juicy asset sitting right there ready to be tapped, and everybody looks right past it. And I think that was what was most exciting for me to see, was that this was a really good solution for your average retired American out there.
So you see this gap, you see the potential solution. What are some of the pitfalls? What are some of the issues that maybe it's a mentality thing like, I think you touched on that a lot in your book, just kind of like this mentality of like, reverse mortgages are not of the devil. It's a tool. It's a financial tool, right? But maybe talk to us about some of these pitfalls. Why wouldn't somebody who's coming up short on retirement, you know, be opposed to looking at a reverse mortgage as a solution for them.
So I think I was on a recent podcast, and we were addressing this very issue. Any mortgage product that comes out, it comes out with a specific purpose in mind, and if it gets used for the wrong purpose, it will get a black eye. And I'm going to give you a very recent example of this. Okay, we all know about the 2008 meltdown in the mortgage market. There was a specific product called a payment option arm that had come out, and that was designed for people who had what you would call seasonal income. I'll give you an example. I did one of these loans for a guy who owned a pizza shop in New Jersey. He made the bulk of his money from May 1 to October 1, and that loan gave him an opportunity to make a very reduced payment in the off season and then hammer away at paying that loan down when he was in season, specific, purpose, specific client. That's what you went that's that program was perfect for them. However, my industry often kills the golden goose. They gave it to everybody because it was easier to qualify for and it destroyed people. Bad application leads to black eyes, and that program is gone and will never come back again. It has been completely regulated, off the pill, off the planet, reverse mortgages, when they were first developed. Developed. They were developed at a time when people were not living as long for one so they were so the expectation was it was going to be a small piece for maybe folks who didn't have enough time to put money away. And what it turned out is they just did not expect some of the issues that came up. I'll give you a perfect example. I cover in my book, when you were getting a reverse mortgage, you had to be age 62 and there was a, there was a very well known basketball player played for the 76 there's local team to me. I'm outside the Philly market, right? And Caldwell Jones. Caldwell retired to Atlanta, he and his wife. His wife was younger than him. Caldwell takes a reverse mortgage out. He's 62 kind of had spent through his money that he earned as a player, gets a year of it alone, has a heart attack, passes away. Now, his wife is not 62 she does not qualify for a reverse mortgage when the loan originator put the loan together, he did it just in Caldwell's name. As a result, when he passed away, that note became due, just like any other loan would be, whether it be a home equity loan or any kind of forward mortgage you might get as a refinance or purchase, the loan comes due if that person, if the if the loan moves to the person's estate, which it did. Now, his wife fought it in court for several years because she couldn't qualify to get financing for the house, and she didn't want to lose the house. And everybody looked at it and said, Well, this isn't fair. Even the judge said it wasn't fair, but he said, but that's not how it was written, the way, the way that mortgage was written, we had to follow it. This company's right to foreclose on the house if you can't pay them, pay them off out of your funds. And so she ended up losing the house. But HUD recognized the case law. And said, Hey, we got to change this. And they changed it in 2014 and I, and that's a really important regulatory point for reverse mortgages. This is when they when they were combed through, and they were really modified in a very good way and regulated in a very good way. So I think that they're a lot safer in that ruling in 2014 they said, Now, if you are a non borrowing spouse, which she was, she wasn't on the loan, but she was a spouse. Non borrowing spouses get to stay in the home until they either pass away or they leave the home for 12 months or more, most likely for long term care, then the house has to be sold and the loan paid off. That was a really important point. If it happened to Caldwell Jones, it happened to 1000s of other people, more than likely, which is why, I think the result this mentality that the bank's going to take your house when you die and leave a spouse high and dry? Well, it wasn't every spouse was going to be high and dry, but it was spouses that weren't in this new ruling as a non borrowing spouse that alone, from what I could research, I believe that regulatory change itself, probably it is the most important of all the regulatory changes to the loan, because it protected the spouse who didn't qualify for the mortgage, who wasn't 62 and I really believe that's the root of a lot of the the idea that the bank takes your home, they own your equity, All the misconceptions, all the things that are wrong in that I see, in the myths that people have about reverse mortgages, I really think it ties to that ruling. That was a really important there was a second regulatory change in that 2014 and this is more on my industry. One of the big criticisms of a reverse mortgage that I heard from accounts was it's ridiculously expensive. And I'm like, Well, why do you say that? Oh, these fees, they're crazy. Well, I think prior to 2014 they probably were, because there was no limit on what a loan officer could charge for an origination fee, and it was a refinance. So an unknowing client, really, all the closing costs are rolled into the loan. They never they don't pay it out of pocket. So an unknown, unknowing client might pay, you know, a 15, $20,000 origination fee back then, that's too much. And so with the with the federal regulation was from HUD, was the max you could get as an origination fee now, is $6,000 they put a formula in place. That's the max you could that's the max you could get. And that dramatically regulated what loan officers could make on the loan. And I think that was in. Another important piece, because a loan officer can easily slip through origination charges on a client who they didn't know because they weren't writing the check for it. It was built into the loan. So I think there was a little bit of, you know, probably abuse of the system that created some problems for some folks as well. And why that? It's very expensive. You know, mentality came out about a reverse mortgage, and I think for a lot of folks, they don't understand some of what the expense is, too, in closing costs. Sure, you know, there's mortgage insurance that is applied on an FHA version of a reverse mortgage that protects the errors in the future. And it's actually a really important thing to have any it's about 40% of the closing costs on an FHA hacker. And again, it's financed in the loan. It's not something you're paying out of pocket. But there's a really important point to that, and that is, if the if the loan exceeds the value of the house that FHA mortgage insurance pays that so the heirs do not have a shortage. So,

I mean, there's, there's, there's confusion, there is perception. There's maybe even been some things in the news that get people scared about what might be happening, right? So that there's, there's a bunch of things that have given, I think, unfairly, this, this idea that this tool is bad. I've actually seen family members and clients of my own that have had a reverse mortgage that if they didn't have that they wouldn't have been able to keep their home until they died. They wouldn't have been able to keep their dignity of of what they've built up in the home. I mean, let's talk about the home. I mean, it is kind of, it's one of those symbols of the American dream, right? It's, it's one of the things that that that people really don't maybe count as value. Like, this is, this is this is my independence. This is my freedom. Maybe talk to us a little bit about that, like, why, why that is such an important piece of it. Ken,
yeah, there, there's this. There's this really interesting viewpoint of real estate in the United States versus other countries. England's a perfect example of this. Over in Europe, people pay down their loan, and when they pay it down and they hit retirement, they take a reverse mortgage out. That's the natural order of things over there, pay your pay your loan off, and when you retire, take a reverse mortgage on your house and help supplement your retirement. That's just an accepted way of thinking. You mentioned this, you know a minute ago is that in the United States, we somehow see owning your home outright as this security item. I own my home. Nobody can take it from me. Well, yet local government can if you don't pay your taxes. You know? I mean, there's there. It's, we don't always own our home. This is interested in it, but, but there's, there's something about, there's something comforting that's been built into the into the US psyche about owning a home outright when it really is an asset. It's an asset like your IRA is an asset, like an annuity is an asset. It's an asset. It has a value, and you should capitalize on the value of the asset to help you make your way through retirement. And that's the way I look at it. And I think there people are starting to come around to that. Although I still, I still get that security, yeah, but I feel really secure knowing I own my own I'm like, but if you can't afford it, you're eventually going to lose it, you know, you have to be able to afford to live there, maintain the property. All those things are kind of what the reverse allows you to do. And, you know, it's but it's really interesting, the psyche in the United States so different than other parts of the world that, you know, we just somehow that got tied to the American dream in a way that everybody wants that security. That's that, and that's the word that always comes up among my senior clients, is, is secure? Well, yeah, but that's my security. You know, they're just so afraid to lose it. And then when you have these myths out there that the bank can take it from you, then it just, you know, it really sets up a wall and and really trying to get people to change the paradigm of that to where you really have an asset of value that you can use.
Yeah, I think this perception of learning. Losing, you know, but you know, losing the home, losing their independence, losing that, you know, as a potential for doing this reverse mortgage, that that that is pretty scary to a lot of older folks who who are probably not very familiar with how all this works. So why don't, why don't you walk us through, like, What? What? What's the steps or the framework? Like, how do you help people that you know, for example, or they're going to come up short, or they're already coming up short on their retirement, they don't have access to additional capital or resources, and they want to keep the security. They want to keep that home base they want to keep their home what's, what's kind of the framework, or the steps that you would say people go through to see is this a good fit, and how it might work for them?

And a lot of that is, I actually use a visual when I'm talking with people. I actually had, I actually physically have a visual I use. It's a, it's basically a picture of a bucket. And I say, Okay, this is your this is your asset. This is the money you've put away. You know, the water in this bucket is the money you put away for retirement and for your whole life you had this big faucet on that was your income coming in, and here's this bucket you're trying to fill up for retirement, I said, but throughout your entire life, there's been holes in the bucket. You've had a mortgage payment, you've had real estate taxes, you've had homeowners insurance, you've had car loans, you have had credit cards, kids education, all of which are holes so that water is always flowing out, but you had a big old faucet driving water in as you were walking, as you were walking along in life, your career, was pouring all this water in, and now you've retired, and the faucet shut off, and these tiny faucets opened up Social Security, maybe a pension, maybe an annuity that you had, and they're dripping water into that bucket. If you have holes in that bucket, still it's draining. So how do how can the reverse help you? And I said, Well, if one of the buckets is you have an existing mortgage, that's a monthly payment going out, let's plug that hole. Let's use the reverse to pay off that mortgage and shut off the monthly payment. Now we plugged a hole. We have additional money on that reverse mortgage. Let's use that to pay your real estate taxes going forward. Shut off another hole, right? Maybe we and maybe we even have enough more money in that to where you can supplement or pour money into the bucket from the reverse mortgage. So we're keeping the water level up as much as we can, and we're trying to plug holes. And I always point out to folks that there are, there are holes in that bucket. You have no control over inflation is one of them. Inflation makes every hole bear. You can't control that. You can't control interest rates. There's, there's parts of that bucket that you don't have any control over. You're you're planning as best you can, but you don't have control over that's where the reverse can come in. I mean, many reverse, many retirement economists, they believe you should get a reverse mortgage line of credit early on, let it sit there, tap it when you need it, you know. And one of the best strategies I've heard is, if you can do that, use that to take care of like your sequence of return risk markets are down. Stop pulling money out of the out of the bucket. Use the reverse when times get better and the market increases, go ahead and take it out of the bucket. Stop pulling it off the reverse, and you work them back and forth as a hedge. So there's all these different applications. So when I'm talking to clients, I'm trying to find out, where's it hurting? Where's the pinch? How does this solve it?

Love that if you paint that picture for them, I mean, it seems like that's a great that's a great visual to have as sort of a guide, even like a plan to kind of follow. And so I'm guessing that throughout your process, you're doing some follow up with them, seeing how they're doing, where their risk is on certain things. What's the next hole to plug? What do they do from there? And what would you say is the most important part of everything that you help them do?
Well, I think for folks who are getting getting the reverses like every deal that I've done has been about solving one of these problems or solving multiple problems. You know, in that whole bucket scenario, what? What are we plugging up? What are we pouring in? How are these things can we can we solve more than one problem? We're do we have just enough equity to solve one but that one is a major, major point. Sometimes it's, you know, sometimes it comes down to a realization that it's not solving your problem. Your problem is bigger than what the reverse is going to do. You need to think about a whole new plan, maybe selling the house, and, you know, going into, you know, a cheaper rent area, maybe having to relocate to it, to an area that's less expensive, and all those things come into play. It's, it's not always the solution. It's, it's a part of the solution. Sometimes it's not going to solve the problem. It's my goal is to go in there and find out, can we solve a problem with it? Is it? Is it doesn't make sense, and if it doesn't giving them good advice on doing something different, and that's that's always the toughest one is to say, you know, this isn't going to solve your problem. Your problem bigger than what the reverse can solve for. But most times I've been able to, I've been able to solve a problem either early in the retirement, even late. I mean, I recently had a client come to me. He was going through in home care, and it was getting more expensive. Was running about 12,000 a month. Kind of burned through his cash. He's probably has a life expectancy of about 18 months. Had a $560,000 house. We got $340,000 out for him so he could stay home. Yeah, and that's a late in life solution, so I know it was very specific towards his wish to stay in his house until the very end. So we see everything. It runs the gamut, but the key thing is asking questions and just being honest with folks about whether we're really going to make a positive impact here.
Yeah, so let's talk about the client, for example, like, how, how do they feel as they're coming through? Because I know initially it was like they're, they're worried about, you know, tapping into their home as an asset and potentially losing it. What safeguards? What things do you have in place for them through this process that allows them to really have that sense of security, that it's not going anywhere, like we're going to monitor this? Yeah, and a lot of it's a lot of it's really educating them on how the program works. Part, Part of one of the chapters in my book at the end is, you know what happens at the end? How does How do you exit out of one of these loans? What do your heirs do? What do you do if you go into long term care that you have to have a plan. There's got to be a plan in place. So you know a how you're going to use the money and then how you're going to exit it at the end. But that's true of any that's true of having any kind of financing on a house. There's got to be a plan in place
so people understand what's going on. I mean, when my father in law passed, he still had an outstanding loan on his house, and thank God I'm in the business, so I knew, I knew what was coming and how to handle it. But I could see somebody, you know, having that dropped in their lap and having a bank tell them, you know, we're going to foreclose if you don't pay us off in 90 days, which they do. They know when you pass, they and they come a knocking right away. You know, the reverse is no different. But what I do like about reverse mortgages is they, they, they'll give you an expanded schedule to get that house sold, because they understand the complexities of the, you know, getting the estate set up and all that. So they give you, you know, they, they tell you you have 90 days. Then at the end of 90 days, if you're staying in contact with them, they'll give you another 90. I mean, I've seen them go out as far as a year with some clients because of complexities with getting the estate set up. But they, you know, the banks don't like to take real estate. They hate it. They just want to get paid off. And if that means they got to work with you so that you have time to get a realtor to liquidate the house. They will,
they will. I think that single, that single point right there, is so important, especially for clients and like they're not, you know, one day your house is not just going to be gone and sold to somebody. There is a long, drawn out process, because it's more valuable. It's more valuable to the bank to have it, you know, go through the process, than to be auctioned off like they don't. They don't make a whole lot of money. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't some people that are involved in that that do, but the banks themselves, I think that's a really great point. They want to work with you. I've seen it for myself, my own clients. Clients, my parents, my grandparents. It just this is how the system is set up. So, you know, maybe just that education of knowing that you know, one day you wake up, it's not just going to not be your home anymore, like there is safeguards already. That's that's a great way to put it. I really appreciate that. Ken, listen, I know we've covered a lot today. We've covered, you know, this whole idea of even finding yourself in this spot to to now you've written a book about it. Congratulations. Like that is a huge accomplishment to know. You know, less than 1% of people in the world will actually write a book, and you've completed that about something that just kind of fell into your lap, you started to find this as an issue with a lot of your clients. We've covered some of the issues of, like, the perception the media, the potential for loss and clients wanting to age in place. And you know this, this process of how to kind of go through and plug holes and and safeguard like, I love talking to you about that, because I think there's a misperception, huge, a huge misperception, that somehow your your your snake oils, oil salesmen coming in to sell something, and then you're gone. You know, like, I love what you're doing. I love how you're helping people, really with the long term and how that's as part of their retirement plan. From the very beginning, I had no idea that, you know, there was such a thing as, like, a reverse mortgage line of credit, per se, or however that works. But that's that's really interesting as a just a backup as a plan to have in there so that you don't have to go crawl on to Potter talk about, you know, when, when times are tough, like when times are tough, it is hard to get loans. It's almost impossible. The one time a bank won't let you money is when you need it,

right. That's it. You're exactly right. So I love this idea of, just like planning, keeping that end in mind, if someone's in this realm somewhere, they have a parent, or they themselves, or they have clients, or financial planners or advisors who have clients that are in this role. I know you said it was kind of the book that you wrote, kinetic wealth was really for two people, is really for the end user, but it's also for financial professionals to learn. Obviously, they can go get your book, kinetic wealth book.com, they can go grab that there. They can find it on Amazon. But what are a couple of steps that they can do right now to either prepare themselves, or if they're in this process already and they're wondering, what action do they take? What are 123, things maybe they can be doing.

Well, I think for sure they should be asking their financial planner about reverse mortgages and to see if how it would affect their retirement plan. I mean, most financial planners use some type of predictive software out there and and as a result, you know, the like Monte Carlo analysis is probably the most common that gets used. They plug in all the variables of your plan, and it tries to predict the success rate for the client. And I found from financial planners who've gotten back to me when we applied a reverse mortgage plan. I gave them a proposal and said, Okay, here's what we can do. Those plans were going from a 72% success rate to a 92 plus. That's big, because all of a sudden that becomes a way of guaranteeing if all falls into place by plan, we're going to be okay. We're not going to have a shortfall. And in some of those cases, they were, they were playing with all kinds of other variables. Oh, what if real estate taxes go up? What if insurance goes up? What if insurance goes up? When does when insurance goes up? Right? It's more. Is more? The question there. But they were, you know, they were trying all these scenarios, and they kept staying in the high 90s when they were running these plans, which I think is, you know, is a real testament to the fact that we need to be looking at that as an asset to be used in the financial plan and, and I've also, I even had a, I had a financial planner reach out to me an email the other day. He had read my book, and he said, Hey, I just want just wanted to let you know I was using your book in a tax planning class I was teaching, because the revenue, the cash flow you get off of that loan is non taxable. And, you know, there's, there's things in there for financial planners to try and just kind of click in their head. Hey, did you think about it this way, you know. And that's kind of that was really the goal. Was awareness and education. That's the main thing. I think

awesome. I love it again. You guys can grab that book. Please pick it up. Kineticwealthbook.com. If you're in the situation, advise someone in the situation or reach out to Ken. Ken. It's another way they can reach out to you to be in contact.

So if you get to, if you get to the kinetic wealth book.com, my contact information is all in there. If you buy the book, my contact information is in there as well. I also have, if you look up Ken Pitts mortgage team, Facebook, if you look me up in LinkedIn, my contact information is there as well. And you know, again, I'll talk to anybody. I'll talk to people anywhere at any time, not just the states I'm licensed in, but if I could be offering advice to folks, I'm more than happy to

love it. Thank you for being on the show. And you know, as we mentioned, so much information is the misinformation that gets people scared into not knowing how to utilize this. But it could be the difference. I know it was for my grandfather, not once, but twice. Unforeseen situations in life come up, and, you know, I saw him bounce back and use the reverse mortgage exactly how it should be used. And he kept his dignity a home that he built for, oh, he had it for several decades, property that owned for several decades, that he was able to live almost the rest of his life out very healthily and in a great situation. So thank you Ken for shedding light on this. Thank you for helping us here in the balanced growth show to you know, align people with their values and financially help them to to grow in and and exceed in all areas of life. So thank you for being on the show. Any last things that you would mention, any, anything that you would suggest for those listening out there,

you know, my dad, my dad once told me, said, you know, Ken, if you do something good by somebody, they'll tell three people. If you do something bad, they'll tell 10. Well, I think that's part of the reason why reverse has the reputation it does. And I'm just, I'm just hoping to get as many of those three people out there talking about it as possible. But Travis, I appreciate you having me on and you know, for your support when I was writing the book, and you know the encouragement that you gave me, because it actually it turned out better than I thought, and the feedback on It's been phenomenal. So I'm excited for people to read it.

​Yes, I'm excited. I'm glad that that project went through. You know, I help. You guys might not know out there, but in my book, marry and Grow Rich, my new book, which, if you haven't got go to Marion Grow Rich book.com or you can pick it up on Amazon, but we talk about using thought leadership to help grow your business. And that's Ken, that's what you're doing right now. You've used it to grow your business. You've used it to expand. You're getting on podcasts and speaking and, you know, getting the word out there. Because I think if you're going to do something to help the public understand, you know, an issue is convoluted as mortgages and as as tied up in litigation and myths and untruths, like you've done a fantastic job, but I think a book is a great way to start. It is honestly the best way to improve your thought leadership quotient, and you've done a fantastic job. So thanks for being on the show, thanks for being a guest, and we will chat with you guys later in our next episode, and remember to grab Ken's book. If you haven't picked up mine, definitely pick that one up as well. It's Marion grow richbook.com and we'll talk to you on the next episode. Remember, live life on purpose together.